[Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
Fabian Anderson
fabian.anderson at Fintechnix.com
Fri Mar 16 09:11:07 EST 2007
Hi All,
I have been using Visual Studio as the editor for OpenROAD 4.1 and had been looking towards OR2006 in order to take advantage of improved integration with Visual Studio, but have not got to look at it yet. Are there any improvements in this area or is it just that the OR2006 workbench has more features similar to Visual Studio?
In addition to the editor, I think that the debugger is also a very important part of any IDE. It is very nice to hover your mouse over a variable at runtime and see its value.
Regards,
Fabian.
________________________________
From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] On Behalf Of Pete Rabjohns
Sent: Friday, 16 March 2007 00:12
To: International OpenROAD Users
Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
I'd agree that Eclipse *can* become complicated if you install all the options, but it is a framework within itself, and how complicated it becomes depends on how you build up that framework.
My point (which I didn't make very well) was that I'd rather see Ingres developers working on developing the OpenROAD framework, rather than trying to make a good/better IDE - if it were to be further developed then there may be some mileage in using an IDE framework that is already developed.
I don't know about everyone else, but I reckon that 95% (probably more) of my time spent developing apps is spent inside a text editor... so something with intellisense would be nice - but there are probably quite a few out there that could be configured to understand OpenROAD without having to hand craft something. I use UltraEDIT , and at least I get syntax colouring... would be nice to add intellisense as well.
________________________________
From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] On Behalf Of Kim Ginnerup
Sent: 15 March 2007 12:01
To: International OpenROAD Users
Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
> By the way my device is: "Everything can be achieved with OpenROAD"
I agree on that one. ;-)
>it's hard to find a better one than Eclipse
I do not agree. I find it over engineered and overloaded.
The trend that everything should be done from inside the IDE is IMHO wrong.
I am pretty sure that we in the future will see a 'lets get back to the basics' IDE.
Sure not from MS or IBM or SUN I think they have an interest in swamping you in.
Ooh, I'm in for a beat now, ;-)
I like that the source is in the database.
The problem is that the version control is bad, and it is difficult to integrate it to existing systems like: CVS or subversion.
Kim
________________________________
Fra: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] På vegne af Kenneth.H.Olsson at tietoenator.com
Sendt: 15. marts 2007 12:41
Til: openroad-users at peerlessit.com
Emne: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
Hi there,
Sorry Jim, I agree with Kim on this. More or less everything you see in the workbench is available to you as a developer. Written in another language there would probably be other nice features, which we developers immediately would call for. And subsequenty must be developed through OpenROAD anyway.
By the way my device is: "Everything can be achieved with OpenROAD"
Regards,
Kenneth
________________________________
From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] On Behalf Of Kim Ginnerup
Sent: den 15 mars 2007 11:07
To: International OpenROAD Users
Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
Actually I think you could view this quite the opposite way.
I find it a big plus that OpenROAD is written in OpenROAD.
Every time the workbench needs a feature it gets developed and we can use it afterwards.
I think the new portlets are an effect of something needed in the new workbench and now we can do the same.
Or when we all request a feature, it can later be used in the workbench.
I think that it is mutual beneficial.
Looking at the MS Visual Studio monster it uses a lot of techniques that is also available for the developer.
I think it is a win-win situation.
I do not see a conflict between todays advanced ERP screens and a workbench.
I have developed ERP systems and development tools for many many years now. When I look back I can see a shift towards less typing and more control, planning, analyzing and follow up.
Providing a general overview of what is happening. Most of the data going into a modern ERP system now comes direct using EDI, XML or what ever format. Ditto for data generated by the ERP.
Kim
________________________________
Fra: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] På vegne af Antill, Jim
Sendt: 15. marts 2007 10:35
Til: International OpenROAD Users
Emne: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
Hi,
One thing that's got me thinking recently is why the workbench has to be written in OpenROAD? For example, there are Perl, Java etc. IDE's that integrate closely with the environment, providing access to debuggers etc. yet aren't written in the language that they provide the IDE for.
It would seem to me that whilst OpenROAD is good for developing applications it can't provide all the facilities that an IDE requires.
As long as the workbench is written in OR it's always going to constrained by the functions that OR itself provides. There are facilities that an IDE needs that most apps won't e.g access to version control, built in ftp, plug-in access to third-party editors, tool designers etc.
Writing the workbench in another language (I'm not suggesting any particular language) would surely give the developer much more freedom and make things easier. Third party tools such as graphical map designers, editors, plug-ins etc. could be brought in easily without having to rely on ORs ActiveX interface. I know when I wrote my Object Modeller program the actual map part could have been written much easier in another language, or a third party product used.
I guess writing the workbench in something other than OR would mean that things like the debugger, compiler etc would need to be given hooks so that external applications can use them. Again, seemingly not a problem for Perl, Java etc. And hooks like this into OpenROAD would only be beneficial for us developers (and ultimately users).
What does everyone think? Would it make sense to develop a non-OpenROAD workbench, or would it be a step in the wrong direction?
Regards,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com]On Behalf Of Dougwa is cool
Sent: 15 March 2007 08:07
To: openroad
Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
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Hi All
The new workbench has its problems, and at the moment i am sticking to the old (both because of client requirements and because of preference) but to be fair the guys at Ingres had a deadline to meet, or risk being ridiculed by the community for announcing deadlines and not producing, you all rember R5 right? the one that was due to come out in june 2005.. no december 2005.. no march 2006
The guys at ingres are putting a lot of effort into making the tool attractive to new users, however Joe Kronk said to us during one of the BETA calls, that he told the guys that they can stop working on the new workbench when us tried and true members are happy with it, and want to start using it.
Considering that a very small percentage of the OpenROAD community had enough free time to give feedback on the BETA testing, i think they've done a pretty damn good job. I also think that when OpenROAD goes open source we will see huge improvements in this and many other areas.
I think its important as a community that more of us put time into becoming familiar with the interface and feedback to Ingres... i think most of them have accounts on this list so I think we are going in the right direction
Anyways... rant over
Doug White
________________________________
> From: hcsfas at texlife.com
> To: openroad-users at peerlessit.com
> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:07:44 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
>
> Hi
>
> I occassionally dialed into weekly the beta status calls for OR2006. Jim
> Batten mentioned that intellisense would be added to a future release
> possibly one due out in August of this year. Their was some mention that
> the next release may be open sourced.
>
> They were very open to suggestions for improving the editor portion of the new
> ide. I came away from the calls with the impression that they are heading in
> the right direction. My guess is that they chose to concentrate on the
> workbench because it may have been the obvious place to start. This assumes
> that the component and script editors will be integrated into the workbench
> ide to provide a look and feel more similar to the Netbeans IDE or Visual
> Studio 2005.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday 14 March 2007 11:12, Adrian Williamson wrote:
> > Hi Kim
> >
> > Yes a new editor would have been nice, one with Intellisense that works for
> > our own classes would have been even bettor.
> >
> > Don't worry about the negative bit, Ingres has to know what the mature
> > community thinks.
> >
> > Imagine someone using the new Workbench who hasn't worked with OpenROAD
> > before, it might put them off.
> >
> > Not good.
> >
> > Maybe Ingres could pay some third party to do a Intuition / Style audit on
> > the three different workbench styles that have appeared over the years, and
> > cherry pick the best bits.
> >
> > Call me old fashioned, but I thought the orginal Sapphire Editor with
> > cataolgue views was the most intuative to use, but it was the first I
> > learn't.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com
> > [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] On Behalf Of Kim Ginnerup
> > Sent: 14 March 2007 15:39
> > To: International OpenROAD Users
> > Subject: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
> >
> > I have used the new workbench for some time now.
> > At first I found it very difficult and I still get lost sometimes to find
> > what I want.
> > I'm not sure if the problems are because I'm used to the old one, or it
> > simply is because the new one is not intuitive enough.
> > The old one is not intuitive but with time you learn.
> > I think there are a lot of good things in the new workbench, but I also
> > think it has a long way to go before it works as you would expect.
> > 1. I am beginning to use right click a lot, and gets frustrated when the
> > options I expect to see is missing.
> > I miss import and New(Create)
> > 2. I do not like the one top toolbar fits everything.
> > I like self contained portlets with its own functions.
> > 3. I do not like the "everything can be done from here style" IDE's, like
> > Eclipse and Visual Studio and partly the new workbench. I guess most
> > projects that reach a certain size needs lots of commandline stuff to
> > automate build, packages, patches, ...
> > 4. I do not like for example that I have to open, change, save & close
> > application properties. I have just clicked on that tab that should be
> > enough. So select the tab do the changes leave the tab. I think the Open for
> > edit, edit, save or save&close is unnecessary. I like modeless frames Not
> > like this where you switch between edit and view. This is to much like old
> > VI style editing.
> > 5 A global toolbar is for global stuff. So why do I have a connect to
> > database button, when it only works in the connect tab.
> >
> > There are a lot of small nitty gritty details that should be looked at.
> > And this mail my come out a bit to the negative side. That is not my
> > intention. I think the new workbench is a step in the right direction, but
> > it is not there yet.
> >
> > Actually I would have liked to see a new Editor instead of a new workbench.
> >
> > Kim
> >
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com
> > [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] På vegne af
> > gareth.2.edwards at bt.com
> > Sendt: 14. marts 2007 15:39
> > Til: openroad-users at peerlessit.com
> > Emne: Re: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
> >
> > I had a few problems with it too, so stuck with the classic view for now.
> >
> > It's on the back-burner, of, when I get time I'll have a quick play.
> > (along with plenty of other things, mClient, app server etc etc etc...)
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Gareth Edwards
> >
> > BT Global Services
> > tel: +44 (0)131 345 4671
> > email: gareth.2.edwards at bt.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com
> > [mailto:openroad-users-bounces at peerlessit.com] On Behalf Of Adrian
> > Williamson
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:45 PM
> > To: 'International OpenROAD Users'
> > Subject: [Openroad-users] OpenROAD 2006 : New Workbench GUI Rant.
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Are any of you using the new Workbench?
> >
> > Or have you stuck with the classic view?
> >
> > I've had a quick go this morning, and it's not floating my boat.
> >
> > To start with:
> >
> > Not really sure when I've connected to a new application database.
> > Cannot resize the development window.
> > Cannot get rid of the Component details subwindow.
> > Cannot set qep / printqry from the DBsession in the Query monitor facility
> > to make output appear in the trace window.
> > E_US09C4 Syntax error on line 1. Last symbol read was: 'set printqry'.
> > (Wed Mar 14 12:28:21 2007)
> > Cannot find the break on next control.
> >
> >
> > If anyone else has found some obvious annoyances and or solutions then
> > please post.
> >
> > If I get the debugger going then perhaps I can have a rant about the fact I
> > can't copy and paste variable names / content from the Watcher frame in the
> > debugger. (That's the case in classic mode anyway)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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